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Zakyrie
14 Jan 18 10:17 PM |
Joan said:
I get your point, however you have to understand that a dead/dying server doesn't have to end with a reset or a shut down, one of the highest rated Ragnarok Online servers, which was the highest rated for several years until very recently has been running since 2006 or so, without a single wipe ever, for the first 3 or 4 years it was considered a dead server, with between 50 and 200 players at any given point, its Staff's perseverance on the development of the server despite its "low" playerbase and income eventually paid off, when within months this server's playerbase increased to between 1200 and 2000 online players at any given point, bringing it to the top of the Ragnarok servers list and keeping it there for several years until like I said very recently that another server took its place, and now its rests at the 2nd place with the same 1200-2000 players at any given point, occasionally re-gaining its #1 place and then losing it again to the same competitor.
However there's a difference: The server I am talking about is a low rates server of a Korean grinder game that was extremely popular during its glory days in 2002-2004, which means it does actually takes years to get everything you want, I'm not sure how would this work for a high rates server like Cyntara.
A private server is an investment, if you cannot sustain it without screwing your players' progress every year, then you cannot expect to keep a sizable fanbase that is willing to invest a lot of time and effort into it.
Regards, Zaul
Zakyrie said:
EXP is definitely too high. It's 2 weeks in and I have a level 1440 MS, a 1180 ED and a 1030 EK. Considering all the "end game" quests are at level 1400, this leaves nothing to do for the player base who is actually putting time into the game. So when they get bored and leave just out of nothing to do, then the server just dies out. Which is why it heavily relys on resets.
It's too the point the game lasts like 3 weeks then everyone has already basically finished the game and has to sit in temple or trainers all day because they don't see the point in getting higher level. Which leads to resets even sooner than 1 year. This one was only 5 and a half months from the last.
Obviously you're not gonna make it like RL tibia where you're pouring years of your life into 1 character for it to just reset in the state Cyntara is currently in. But at least 2 months instead of 2 weeks to get the same progress I have now isn't unreasonable.
Also, the only reason it NEEDS to reset. Is because the average playerbase sits at level 400-1000. You have kids near level 2000 a month down the road, which makes it impossible for lower level players do to anything. Which is why cutting exp rates, lowers that gap.
Joan said:
Great thread, only thing I have to disagree on is the EXP being too high, EXP is in a good spot right now, I mean, I understand better than anyone how satisfying working hard towards leveling a charcter up and reaching end game on MMORPGs feels, however, for Cyntara specifically this wouldn't work, the reason is the fact that, when you come play Cyntara, you know full well that its a matter of time for it to undergo another reset, this makes investing too much time and effort into a character feel unrewarding and thus unappealing, by making it significantly harder to level up, only the three or four extremely dedicated RPG players the server has will ever reach end-game, several of my team refused to play this reset because "they hate the first 900 or so levels", and even though this is not about my whinny team being too casual to AFK bot for the like 6-10 hours it takes to reach 900, their input is something worth noting, because it might aswell be what many other players think.
So for as long as Cyntara relies on resets, you cannot reasonably expect anyone to take Cyntara as serious as an actual MMORPG developed and maintained by a trustworthy company with funds that you know aren't gonna screw all your hard worked progress up at any time.
Regarding the boots, I'm not sure if Crystal Boots are still around, but its sprite is by far my favorite within all of Tibia, might consider bringing that item back as the best unlimited/non-rechargeable footwear, either for all or for mages and then bring its green counterpart; the Dragon Scale Boots for RP/EK.
Regards, Zaul
Great thread, only thing I have to disagree on is the EXP being too high, EXP is in a good spot right now, I mean, I understand better than anyone how satisfying working hard towards leveling a charcter up and reaching end game on MMORPGs feels, however, for Cyntara specifically this wouldn't work, the reason is the fact that, when you come play Cyntara, you know full well that its a matter of time for it to undergo another reset, this makes investing too much time and effort into a character feel unrewarding and thus unappealing, by making it significantly harder to level up, only the three or four extremely dedicated RPG players the server has will ever reach end-game, several of my team refused to play this reset because "they hate the first 900 or so levels", and even though this is not about my whinny team being too casual to AFK bot for the like 6-10 hours it takes to reach 900, their input is something worth noting, because it might aswell be what many other players think.
So for as long as Cyntara relies on resets, you cannot reasonably expect anyone to take Cyntara as serious as an actual MMORPG developed and maintained by a trustworthy company with funds that you know aren't gonna screw all your hard worked progress up at any time.
Regarding the boots, I'm not sure if Crystal Boots are still around, but its sprite is by far my favorite within all of Tibia, might consider bringing that item back as the best unlimited/non-rechargeable footwear, either for all or for mages and then bring its green counterpart; the Dragon Scale Boots for RP/EK.
Regards, Zaul
EXP is definitely too high. It's 2 weeks in and I have a level 1440 MS, a 1180 ED and a 1030 EK. Considering all the "end game" quests are at level 1400, this leaves nothing to do for the player base who is actually putting time into the game. So when they get bored and leave just out of nothing to do, then the server just dies out. Which is why it heavily relys on resets.
It's too the point the game lasts like 3 weeks then everyone has already basically finished the game and has to sit in temple or trainers all day because they don't see the point in getting higher level. Which leads to resets even sooner than 1 year. This one was only 5 and a half months from the last.
Obviously you're not gonna make it like RL tibia where you're pouring years of your life into 1 character for it to just reset in the state Cyntara is currently in. But at least 2 months instead of 2 weeks to get the same progress I have now isn't unreasonable.
Also, the only reason it NEEDS to reset. Is because the average playerbase sits at level 400-1000. You have kids near level 2000 a month down the road, which makes it impossible for lower level players do to anything. Which is why cutting exp rates, lowers that gap.
I get your point, however you have to understand that a dead/dying server doesn't have to end with a reset or a shut down, one of the highest rated Ragnarok Online servers, which was the highest rated for several years until very recently has been running since 2006 or so, without a single wipe ever, for the first 3 or 4 years it was considered a dead server, with between 50 and 200 players at any given point, its Staff's perseverance on the development of the server despite its "low" playerbase and income eventually paid off, when within months this server's playerbase increased to between 1200 and 2000 online players at any given point, bringing it to the top of the Ragnarok servers list and keeping it there for several years until like I said very recently that another server took its place, and now its rests at the 2nd place with the same 1200-2000 players at any given point, occasionally re-gaining its #1 place and then losing it again to the same competitor.
However there's a difference: The server I am talking about is a low rates server of a Korean grinder game that was extremely popular during its glory days in 2002-2004, which means it does actually takes years to get everything you want, I'm not sure how would this work for a high rates server like Cyntara.
A private server is an investment, if you cannot sustain it without screwing your players' progress every year, then you cannot expect to keep a sizable fanbase that is willing to invest a lot of time and effort into it.
Regards, Zaul
So your point is, there's no reason to make the exp lower because in the end it's just gonna reset and you're just putting more work in?
That makes sense, but this server has changed from back in the day many years ago. It isn't just "get all donors level 1, bot wyrms, war non-stop". There's a ton of content now compared to when ToT was infinite and "super brain" was the only way to promote.
You could potentially get an entirely new player base if the pace of the game was slowed down dramatically to the point that there would be no purpose in reseting because the level gap wasn't like 1500+ levels. And instead you could focus on new content for the players slowly climbing through the high levels.
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Joan
14 Jan 18 10:31 PM |
I agree that, if the rates are lowered enough that it takes years to "finish" the game, without making it feel as difficult as real Tibia(its a very delicate balance) it will have a very good shot at succeeding, however I doubt slowing it down by a mere month or two will actually do anything to change the server's current condition for the better.
Cyntara has a better chance at being a low rate server than any Real Map has, because of its heavily custom nature, Cyntara can make it so its nearly as slow as real Tibia without making you feel like you're playing an Open Tibia server(a low rates real map could never work because then you might aswell play real Tibia instead, which is more reliable than any Tibia private server will ever be), but with the amount of customization this server has room for, and with the addition of other games features, such as the WoW-like Artifacts that we now have, you can definitely turn it into a very unique experience, one that real Tibia could never provide.
One thing I have noticed about some other games' highest rated, low rates private servers is that they do not feel like their official counterparts, they feel like you're playing a completely unique, different game, and an improved one at that.
Regards, Zaul
Cyntara has a better chance at being a low rate server than any Real Map has, because of its heavily custom nature, Cyntara can make it so its nearly as slow as real Tibia without making you feel like you're playing an Open Tibia server(a low rates real map could never work because then you might aswell play real Tibia instead, which is more reliable than any Tibia private server will ever be), but with the amount of customization this server has room for, and with the addition of other games features, such as the WoW-like Artifacts that we now have, you can definitely turn it into a very unique experience, one that real Tibia could never provide.
One thing I have noticed about some other games' highest rated, low rates private servers is that they do not feel like their official counterparts, they feel like you're playing a completely unique, different game, and an improved one at that.
Regards, Zaul
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Trith
15 Jan 18 12:05 AM |
I agree with all points except the first.
Very well written buddy
Very well written buddy
Midoriya likes this post.
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Klaas
15 Jan 18 04:30 AM |
I can definitely stand behind lowering the experience rates.
I think it'll open up the option to heavily improve early game. First thing that comes to my mind is spacing out equipment better around level 0 to 600. Now you just do warzone 1 and loot your DSM + royal axe/mystic blade/cranial basher or your paladin armor or blue robe and that's that. A dragon lord drops you a nice royal helmet, you loot a knight legs and boh on the way and you're settled for quite some time. Making most items around that period just not worth using.
Perhaps it could also ease the struggle that new players seem to have? I see a lot of new people who say they "feel lost" and don't really know what to do when. I think simple, straight forward and fun quests, like the illusion quest, mining quest and last creep standing, would make for a smooth landing zone for newcoming players and at the same time add more early gear.
Maybe it'll also open up a space in between the early gear and high end gear? More stuff like pits of inferno, trial of fire and inquisition who give gear that fits nicely inbetween early and end game.
@Joan, don't you think that at this point it's more of a cycle than anything else? You don't want experience lowered because the server will reset anyways but the server resets because everyone reached end game so quickly because of the high experience rates. That seems like a cycle to me.
I think it'll open up the option to heavily improve early game. First thing that comes to my mind is spacing out equipment better around level 0 to 600. Now you just do warzone 1 and loot your DSM + royal axe/mystic blade/cranial basher or your paladin armor or blue robe and that's that. A dragon lord drops you a nice royal helmet, you loot a knight legs and boh on the way and you're settled for quite some time. Making most items around that period just not worth using.
Perhaps it could also ease the struggle that new players seem to have? I see a lot of new people who say they "feel lost" and don't really know what to do when. I think simple, straight forward and fun quests, like the illusion quest, mining quest and last creep standing, would make for a smooth landing zone for newcoming players and at the same time add more early gear.
Maybe it'll also open up a space in between the early gear and high end gear? More stuff like pits of inferno, trial of fire and inquisition who give gear that fits nicely inbetween early and end game.
@Joan, don't you think that at this point it's more of a cycle than anything else? You don't want experience lowered because the server will reset anyways but the server resets because everyone reached end game so quickly because of the high experience rates. That seems like a cycle to me.
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Joan
15 Jan 18 05:24 AM |
Klaas said:
@Joan, don't you think that at this point it's more of a cycle than anything else? You don't want experience lowered because the server will reset anyways but the server resets because everyone reached end game so quickly because of the high experience rates. That seems like a cycle to me.
@Joan, don't you think that at this point it's more of a cycle than anything else? You don't want experience lowered because the server will reset anyways but the server resets because everyone reached end game so quickly because of the high experience rates. That seems like a cycle to me.
You're right, in its current state Cyntara is doomed to keep resetting or remain "dead" indefinitely(probably until fat amounts of content is added, but most likely permanently), this is the fate of all high rates private servers of any game I've ever touched, high rates servers, due to their "easy" nature cannot keep players hooked for long enough as they will devour all content within hours/days/weeks, hell, even mid rates servers struggle to achieve this(you can see that in any mid rates real map Tibia server, where they start somewhere around 100x/200x and end at 2x or 1x by around level 200, at that point it isn't worth leveling anymore instead of simply moving to RL Tibia, at this point you've officially "finished" the RPG aspect of that real map server and there's only PvP left).
I don't see how making it so the grind to end game takes a few more months would keep people around, right now people are quitting way before they achieve end game, look at the active users and then go check how many people have reached end game, as of the time of this post there are only 14 people(mostly still active) that have reached level 1400, the server's population has suffered a lot these last days, for many reasons, some that I believe I know a bit about, but most that I ignore, most if not all of those leaving players certainly hadn't hit end-game, a few of them most likely left because they were bored with the grind to 1400, or the people that abused bugs and got punished, or the ones who fell(and still fall) for the no disconnecting feature trap, or how newbie unfriendly Tibia is in general, or something else, you name it. Now, I'm by NO means saying that it should be made even easier, I'm just saying that I doubt the speed at which you hit end game level is what is making the server bleed right now, so I don't see how stretching the path to end game will do good to anyone other than very few dedicated RPG players the server has, the server needs much, much more drastic changes than that for anything to truly change for the better.
Low rates servers with enough content can definitely take a very long time to "finish", but for them to succeed you have to make sure that it doesn't feel like its official counterpart(because you cannot compete with them on their playing field) whilist making the experience the least frustrating/most satisfying possible, and of course, endless amounts of very well thought out content would need to be added, bugs would need to be hunted down and fixed on the fly before they're inevitably abused, etcetera. This is hardly something a developer who manages this server on his/her free time can do, and the dedicated playerbase such a server would attract would never forgive a reset/wipe.
Thing is, this wasn't Chan's focus through all these years slowly developing Cyntara, it is clear that he wanted to see Cyntara succeed as a high rates server, since this is one of the few aspects of the server that never changed, for whatever reason, and I doubt he's going to change his mind and suddenly turn his little baby Cyntara into something so different and complicated, and that's understandable for many reasons.
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Zakyrie
15 Jan 18 12:15 PM |
Joan said:
You're right, in its current state Cyntara is doomed to keep resetting or remain "dead" indefinitely(probably until fat amounts of content is added, but most likely permanently), this is the fate of all high rates private servers of any game I've ever touched, high rates servers, due to their "easy" nature cannot keep players hooked for long enough as they will devour all content within hours/days/weeks, hell, even mid rates servers struggle to achieve this(you can see that in any mid rates real map Tibia server, where they start somewhere around 100x/200x and end at 2x or 1x by around level 200, at that point it isn't worth leveling anymore instead of simply moving to RL Tibia, at this point you've officially "finished" the RPG aspect of that real map server and there's only PvP left).
I don't see how making it so the grind to end game takes a few more months would keep people around, right now people are quitting way before they achieve end game, look at the active users and then go check how many people have reached end game, as of the time of this post there are only 14 people(mostly still active) that have reached level 1400, the server's population has suffered a lot these last days, for many reasons, some that I believe I know a bit about, but most that I ignore, most if not all of those leaving players certainly hadn't hit end-game, a few of them most likely left because they were bored with the grind to 1400, or the people that abused bugs and got punished, or the ones who fell(and still fall) for the no disconnecting feature trap, or how newbie unfriendly Tibia is in general, or something else, you name it. Now, I'm by NO means saying that it should be made even easier, I'm just saying that I doubt the speed at which you hit end game level is what is making the server bleed right now, so I don't see how stretching the path to end game will do good to anyone other than very few dedicated RPG players the server has, the server needs much, much more drastic changes than that for anything to truly change for the better.
Low rates servers with enough content can definitely take a very long time to "finish", but for them to succeed you have to make sure that it doesn't feel like its official counterpart(because you cannot compete with them on their playing field) whilist making the experience the least frustrating/most satisfying possible, and of course, endless amounts of very well thought out content would need to be added, bugs would need to be hunted down and fixed on the fly before they're inevitably abused, etcetera. This is hardly something a developer who manages this server on his/her free time can do, and the dedicated playerbase such a server would attract would never forgive a reset/wipe.
Thing is, this wasn't Chan's focus through all these years slowly developing Cyntara, it is clear that he wanted to see Cyntara succeed as a high rates server, since this is one of the few aspects of the server that never changed, for whatever reason, and I doubt he's going to change his mind and suddenly turn his little baby Cyntara into something so different and complicated, and that's understandable for many reasons.
Klaas said:
@Joan, don't you think that at this point it's more of a cycle than anything else? You don't want experience lowered because the server will reset anyways but the server resets because everyone reached end game so quickly because of the high experience rates. That seems like a cycle to me.
@Joan, don't you think that at this point it's more of a cycle than anything else? You don't want experience lowered because the server will reset anyways but the server resets because everyone reached end game so quickly because of the high experience rates. That seems like a cycle to me.
You're right, in its current state Cyntara is doomed to keep resetting or remain "dead" indefinitely(probably until fat amounts of content is added, but most likely permanently), this is the fate of all high rates private servers of any game I've ever touched, high rates servers, due to their "easy" nature cannot keep players hooked for long enough as they will devour all content within hours/days/weeks, hell, even mid rates servers struggle to achieve this(you can see that in any mid rates real map Tibia server, where they start somewhere around 100x/200x and end at 2x or 1x by around level 200, at that point it isn't worth leveling anymore instead of simply moving to RL Tibia, at this point you've officially "finished" the RPG aspect of that real map server and there's only PvP left).
I don't see how making it so the grind to end game takes a few more months would keep people around, right now people are quitting way before they achieve end game, look at the active users and then go check how many people have reached end game, as of the time of this post there are only 14 people(mostly still active) that have reached level 1400, the server's population has suffered a lot these last days, for many reasons, some that I believe I know a bit about, but most that I ignore, most if not all of those leaving players certainly hadn't hit end-game, a few of them most likely left because they were bored with the grind to 1400, or the people that abused bugs and got punished, or the ones who fell(and still fall) for the no disconnecting feature trap, or how newbie unfriendly Tibia is in general, or something else, you name it. Now, I'm by NO means saying that it should be made even easier, I'm just saying that I doubt the speed at which you hit end game level is what is making the server bleed right now, so I don't see how stretching the path to end game will do good to anyone other than very few dedicated RPG players the server has, the server needs much, much more drastic changes than that for anything to truly change for the better.
Low rates servers with enough content can definitely take a very long time to "finish", but for them to succeed you have to make sure that it doesn't feel like its official counterpart(because you cannot compete with them on their playing field) whilist making the experience the least frustrating/most satisfying possible, and of course, endless amounts of very well thought out content would need to be added, bugs would need to be hunted down and fixed on the fly before they're inevitably abused, etcetera. This is hardly something a developer who manages this server on his/her free time can do, and the dedicated playerbase such a server would attract would never forgive a reset/wipe.
Thing is, this wasn't Chan's focus through all these years slowly developing Cyntara, it is clear that he wanted to see Cyntara succeed as a high rates server, since this is one of the few aspects of the server that never changed, for whatever reason, and I doubt he's going to change his mind and suddenly turn his little baby Cyntara into something so different and complicated, and that's understandable for many reasons.
While there are some people quitting before they reach "end game". There are also people who want a longer experience. For example, a team of like 12 of us did rebirth quest yesterday. At the end of it we found out our levels didn't reset. At least 9 of the 12 players were actually mad about this because they didn't get to grind back up and have their overall experience stretch out more. Here's a couple messages from my discord.
Today at 6:07 AM
rebirth being gone killed my drive
i see no reason to keep going
Today at 6:07 AM
Makes two of us, was looking forward to pging back up
Today at 6:24 AM
i hope v11 comes fast tho
Yesterday at 9:13 PM
we got fucked
is what im trying to say
These players are the most dedicated spending the most time on the server and making up the high levels every single reset. They are also most likely Cyntara's biggest source of income. So you don't think keeping them around for a few more months out of the year is a good idea when they're gonna grind it out till the end either way? Most of the players that "quit" before end game only 2 weeks in, probably never have or never will donate to the server. They want the best EQ right off the bat and want level 1400 over night. Unless we're talking about exceptions like Azur and his team who mainly come for the PvP aspect.
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Trith
16 Jan 18 11:41 PM |
personally I think we should go back to 20 rebirths, this gives the players that know the server something to do while waiting for ervreyone else to not be shit.
This server me and alpha literally sat at 1.4k for 2 weeks waiting for everyone else to catch up so we can rebirth and repg but after they got 1.4k and we rebirtthed we realized it didnt do shit so we just quit.
Rebirth needs to go back to 20 and have rebirth quest ezzzz so we can enjoy the server
This server me and alpha literally sat at 1.4k for 2 weeks waiting for everyone else to catch up so we can rebirth and repg but after they got 1.4k and we rebirtthed we realized it didnt do shit so we just quit.
Rebirth needs to go back to 20 and have rebirth quest ezzzz so we can enjoy the server
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McSticky85
17 Jan 18 07:04 PM |
You would probably get more people to stay, donate and join if there was a lot more less unjustified kills. I've seen others get pissed at lvl 500 going to the potion shop to get slaughtered for no reason. Its usually 2 or 3 lvl 1000+ chasing someone too. Then boasting about it also.
Ever wonder when midgets talk about when they were kids, do they say "When I was little.." lolol
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Joan
17 Jan 18 07:13 PM |
McSticky85 said:
You would probably get more people to stay, donate and join if there was a lot more less unjustified kills. I've seen others get pissed at lvl 500 going to the potion shop to get slaughtered for no reason. Its usually 2 or 3 lvl 1000+ chasing someone too. Then boasting about it also.
You would probably get more people to stay, donate and join if there was a lot more less unjustified kills. I've seen others get pissed at lvl 500 going to the potion shop to get slaughtered for no reason. Its usually 2 or 3 lvl 1000+ chasing someone too. Then boasting about it also.
And what do you suggest from a design standpoint to fix this? you can't just ask people to stop power abusing, or bug abusing, or abuse whatever they can find and expect it to work, you have to actually discourage people from doing that stuff from a design standpoint, there's no other way.
Regards, Zaul
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McSticky85
17 Jan 18 08:28 PM |
Put in locations where you can hunt without being pk'ed. That can be done. Make a few hunting islands for that. It might get over botted though, since thats mainly whats on the server.
Ever wonder when midgets talk about when they were kids, do they say "When I was little.." lolol
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